MPs are citing again?

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bankerboy

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Post Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:53 pm

MPs are citing again?

From Dirttreaders.... MPs citing in Sycamore

A friend got stopped by MP'S in Sycamore Canyon. They said the area is off limits. They take info and give a warning. Second offense and you will have to appear in court on trespassing on federal land charges. Anyone else get stopped?
Matt Bartelt
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kevmortensen

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Post Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:13 am

Re: MPs are citing again?

pmo wrote:
bankerboy wrote:From Dirttreaders.... MPs citing in Sycamore

A friend got stopped by MP'S in Sycamore Canyon. They said the area is off limits. They take info and give a warning. Second offense and you will have to appear in court on trespassing on federal land charges. Anyone else get stopped?

I would hope that my club stamp would get me a free pass and a simple GTFO.

This being said, a couple of months ago there were quads slowly rolling rideglines at the end of spring/oak. Looked, sounded and smelled like jarheads to me. Change of command?


At last nights SDMBA meeting a man who was riding sycamore and actually got stopped by the marines on quads, showed up and told us what went on. The Marines explained to him that someone got injured on marine land (didn't say what type of trail user) then sued the marines and won. So they are stepping up patrols. I hope it peters out within the next couple of months.
Kevin Mortensen - "Special K"
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badkittyjing

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Post Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:26 am

Re: MPs are citing again?

And supposedly the marine land goes all the way to the water facility there? Since I'm not good with "east, west, that far south of switchbacks, etc. etc." when it comes to descriptions, I wasn't sure what parts they were talking about in Sycamore Canyon, but it appears it makes for no access to Sycamore Canyon...
Tara Lucille M. Luansing-Aguilar
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random walk

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Post Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:15 am

Re: MPs are citing again?

I posted this over in DT:

Interesting how much of that route (West Hills HS to Goodan) is on Miramar & East Elliott land. Very little of it is on the preserve.

If you can believe this map.


Hover over some of the bounded areas and they will change to show designation, like "Santee," "Sycamore Canyon County Open Space Preserve," "Goodan Ranch," etc.

A good chunk of the Sycamore Canyon south of Goodan Ranch is shown to be on Miramar property.
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Dustin

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Post Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:34 pm

Re: MPs are citing again?

This is such a bummer. Leave it to some douchebag and the American courts to ruin it for everyone.
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Los

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Post Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:08 pm

Re: MPs are citing again?

Dustin wrote:This is such a bummer. Leave it to some douchebag and the American courts to ruin it for everyone.


yeah I hate it when a select few ruin it for the majority
Carlos O
aut viam inveniam aut faciam
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Mike Kim

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Post Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:21 am

Re: MPs are citing again?

Los wrote:
Dustin wrote:This is such a bummer. Leave it to some douchebag and the American courts to ruin it for everyone.


yeah I hate it when a select few ruin it for the majority


who is the majority, who are the select few, and who sued the marines? let's be careful to not mash up everything in a big ball of frustration folks and start pointing fingers.

what you do know is everybody rides out there, including you, and somebody sued the marines and now they are clamping down. take a look in the mirror folks, there is no moral majority when it comes to riding trails in the grey area.
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badkittyjing

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Post Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:46 am

Re: MPs are citing again?

That's just the report that came from the person who actually was stopped and actually spoke to the MPs.

Could the MPs have been lying? Sure. But whatever the real story is... doesn't change the fact that security has been pumped up for now.
Tara Lucille M. Luansing-Aguilar
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"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."
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Los

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Post Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:47 am

Re: MPs are citing again?

the select few are the ones who hurt themselves falling down and think its ok to sue somebody for it. They are part of the reason there is alot of red tape in trying to get a bike park. Everyone is scared to get sued. The majority is those who love to ride the sweet ST and arent sue happy clowns if they happen to eat it and break an arm or something. There is a moral majority when it comes to riding in the grey area because I am not going to sue somebody for something that happened because of my own actions. Unless there is more info regarding what happened like the marines dug a 15 foot trench in the middle of the singletrack or something along those lines.
There isnt a big ball of frustration here, merely conversating about something that bothers us.

Phil is absolutely right and after reading his post that makes more sense then someone suing. I totally agree with that and if the riding of the ridge above the firing range is happening more frequently its totally called for. I dont go back that far, have only been to a spot that has no trespassing signs and turned around. Are there signs that say "LIVE FIRING RANGE" that people go thru?
Carlos O
aut viam inveniam aut faciam
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Mike Kim

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Post Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:01 am

Re: MPs are citing again?

pmo wrote:
Mike Kim wrote:
Los wrote:
Dustin wrote:This is such a bummer. Leave it to some douchebag and the American courts to ruin it for everyone.


yeah I hate it when a select few ruin it for the majority


who is the majority, who are the select few, and who sued the marines? let's be careful to not mash up everything in a big ball of frustration folks and start pointing fingers.

what you do know is everybody rides out there, including you, and somebody sued the marines and now they are clamping down. take a look in the mirror folks, there is no moral majority when it comes to riding trails in the grey area.


I don't believe the "we got sued" story. I do believe riders got carried away, as I've seen 10-15 sitting on a ridgeline "resting" above a rifle range. Use your head people, you know it is off limits. Why are you bringing groups in and advertising it like a playground?

Take a base commanding officer, with 25+ years in the corps. Take a live range and take people blatantly trespassing and you are going to have fallout. At some point, someone has to look in and say "if one of these friggin numbskulls gets hurt on my watch, it could be my career". Usually that person wears the brass and realizes those ten guys smoking a bowl on the ridge could cost him quite a few dollars. And the fun ends... for a while.


People have ridden there for years without problems. Why don't you believe the we got sued explanation? The MPs are just young guys who have no reason to lie about the reason for the clamp down. If it was 20 guys on the ridge why would they not say that?

I have ridden there in groups of 3-4 or 2 or solo. Who is bringing in groups and advertising it like a playground? What facts can you point to? I am guessing you will blame folks on DT who are not in SDMBA. Before you do that check DT, do a search for posts on Spring, Oak, and you may be surprised at who has brought in groups and/or extolled its fun factor. Somebody here even said on an open forum on DT that over 50 per day ride there - doh.

I think it is important that when these access issues arise, that cool heads prevail and a long look in the mirror be considered.
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badkittyjing

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Post Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:06 am

Re: MPs are citing again?

Hold on there people. Don't start fingerpointing and trying to start a war between SDMBA and DT. I don't think this is what this thread is about.

BTW, I believe the portion he said he was riding had nothing to do with Spring/Oak. He said something about a fork after or before Switchbacks or something like that. Sorry for the vague facts, but because I don't know the trailsystem well, it was difficult for me to understand exactly where he was talking about, so I'm recalling bits and pieces of what I heard from the horse's mouth who was actually at the meeting and was actually stopped by MPs.
Tara Lucille M. Luansing-Aguilar
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"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."
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chuckanado

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Post Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:11 am

Re: MPs are citing again?

Whether "we got sued" is true or not, what pmo says makes sense. The Corps getting sued may have occurred already, or it may just be a prediction for the future.

If you like to ride in that area: Spring, Oak, lower Sycamore (all along the lakes, up to and including both sets of switchbacks) - please keep the groups small, and try to avoid the ridge lines. Yeah, you need to ride the ridgeline trails to connect the good stuff, but minimize your time up there. The further north you go the closer you get to being noticed.

As for people advertising group rides and extolling its fun factor - yeah, I'm guilty of that on at least one occasion. In hindsight maybe it wasn't the best thing to do. But the fact is, lots and lots of MTBers (not just on SDMBA or DT) know about these areas and ride them regularly. Being secretive isn't going to change much - the word's already out.

I would really like to hear more from the guy who got stopped, specifically where this was. Was he really in "Sycamore" or just the general area? If he was hanging out up on a ridge, overlooking the range, or maybe up the canyon by the old missile sites - yeah, that sounds risky. If it was down by the lakes or the switchbacks, that's really a bummer.
Chuck E
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Matt M

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Post Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:17 am

Re: MPs are citing again?

Just for clarification, he was stopped on the Stowe Trail which is the old road bed that runs just west of Santee Lake. He was at the wash crossing next to the Lakes where you would take a left to the Switchbacks. Not on a ridge line, not deep into Spring/Oak and not near a rifle range. The Stowe Trail is the oldest and probably most ridden connector between Santee and Sycamore Canyon and most people don't realize it is on Miramar land. The Marines are patrolling their property boundaries and that includes the north end of Spring/Oak, the Switchbacks and the Stowe Trail.
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random walk

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Post Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:33 am

Re: MPs are citing again?

It's hard to tell from the map I posted above, since there are multiple boundary lines of the same color, but the Miramar land East boundary goes right up to the edge of Santee Lakes (the Northern third, including the water treatment facility).

In this doc, page 5 shows that is the Eastern edge of "Training Area 1." For reference, the gray line going N-S to the right of the words "Training Area 1" is the old jeep trail that runs the spine of the switchback hill.

From the little rectangular bumpout on the East edge of "Training Area 1," to the top NE corner, covers a good portion of the main Sycamore canyon.

edit: Seems to confirm what Matt said before I posted.
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Mike Kim

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Post Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:48 am

Re: MPs are citing again?

Thanks for the clarification pmo. When you said "why are you bringing in groups" I took you literally to mean me, and I am known as a DT sympathiser, not a church group guy - that's for sure.

Laws and rights are legion, but not all are asserted and enforced. They do get enforced when there is a reason to do so, whether it is litigation or the increasing possibility thereof, or something else.

How to deal with that when you are the target of enforcement is a question best left to each rider's personal judgment, and tolerance for risk. Getting on a "list" of federal military trespassers seems mighty risky in these war filled times.
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